Below this video link, is a written transcript of our TV interview, on Simply The Truth, March 2012.
God’s timing is perfect! Recently, three different people unknown to each other, approached me, very kindly offering to transcribe it into English, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese!
I’m so grateful to the Lord, and to these dear ladies for this new open door; this new opportunity to bring more souls to Jesus.
It’s very exciting that now people in other countries, who maybe haven’t saw this video on TV or YouTube before, will soon be able to watch it on YouTube in these languages! Please, join me, in praying that more people will come to Jesus through this video.
If any of you, can translate this into another language, I’d love to hear from you! I’d especially love it to be transcribed into French, for the French speaking people in France and also in Africa. I’d also love it to be transcribed into Italian, God willing.
In this interview, I was so delighted to talk with Doug and Michael on this specific topic, as it’s one of those closest to my heart. Of all the interviews, or articles I’ve been honoured to write, I believe this is simply the most significant topic I’ve ever spoken on. If I was ever to speak on one topic only, this would be it!
When I asked Doug and Michael, if we could cover this topic, Doug asked me to go ahead and research it all. That’s why I have a pile of notes with me. I was so blessed that he trusted me, to ask me to script this show, including the questions that he was to give to Michael and I. It was the first time I had done that. Sadly, at the time, we didn’t realise it was the last time we’d meet. Doug went to be with the Lord in May 2013 and we miss him greatly.
The Occult – Luciferianism within Spiritualism and the New Age : Michael Cummins and Laura Maxwell interviewed by Doug Harris, Simply The Truth, Revelation TV, March 2012.
DOUG HARRIS :
Good evening! This is Simply The Truth with me, Doug Harris. Thank you for joining us, because you are just as important, as those of us here in the studio. With Simply the Truth, we do as the title says, take a subject and share the truth about it, as simply as possible. The subject we are dealing with tonight, is one we get all sorts of emails and questions over. It’s always something that people want to know more about. It’s the whole area of the Occult. Tonight I have got two guests, not just one. Firstly, I want to welcome Laura Maxwell. Thank you for joining us Laura. As soon as you talk, they will know that you are not from this part of the world.
LAURA MAXWELL : That’s right, (she laughs).
DOUG HARRIS : You have been before and you have given your testimony before. You have obviously come out of Spiritualism and so you are really qualified to deal with quite a bit of what we are going to talk about tonight, so thank you for joining us – and also my old mate Michael Cummins. Many of you will know Michael from various times we have had him on here, in the past, so great to have you with us Michael – very much involved in the deliverance ministry. So never been involved in the Occult myself, but really understanding it and understanding what people go through.
MICHAEL CUMMINS : Thank you Doug, thanks very much.
DOUG HARRIS : I guess one of the first questions I really would like to ask tonight is, the whole modern Occult phenomena, it comes at you from all sides and in all different ways. How concerned are you Laura, that people are responding more to it’s message these days because of the way it is presented?
LAURA MAXWELL : Definitely quite concerned and not with just people from any religion, or no faith, but even Christians themselves – as the bible says My people perish through lack of knowledge and even the elect will be deceived. There is certainly more through media, internet and even the actual New Age agenda itself, is definitely geared to reach all of society globally, with the occult message which is now blending as you know, more with ancient gods and ancient religion. So you have got a mix of not only the Occult being acceptable, but it is mixing with things like the Egyptian God Horace, Krishna, the Hindu god, Buddha and these so called ‘previous saviours’. They don’t think that Jesus isn’t the saviour, they think that he is just a reincarnation of these ancient, so called saviours. You see it a lot more in society, a lot more now.
DOUG HARRIS : What Laura just said there is interesting, that even the elect, even Christians who have been on the road for quite some time can be deceived. I think we feel sometimes, that Satan will always come as it were, with the pitch fork and the horns and we recognise him so easily, but that is not the way that the Occult is presented today is it?
MICHAEL CUMMINS : No, the biggest deception Satan has brought to the world, is the deception that people look at him as an evil force. We know that he is an evil force coming delivering evil. The problem with the Occult is, that it has been, shall we say, ‘cleaned up’ these days. If you look at a lot of sites on the internet, there’s no threat in them. It is geared to help people. Many people in the London area, if you get local or regional papers, you see pages of adverts. People say have you got problems passing your exams? Or have you marriage or immigration problems? You will see a certain Sheik, or certain Shaman there advertising his services. For people who don’t know Jesus, who don’t know the Lord, they can be drawn towards that, because we all have a need. Us in Christianity look to the Lord to meet our needs, but people who don’t know the Lord will look in other areas, and that is where they can get deceived and lured into the Occult.
DOUG HARRIS : We are going to deal with that area. As we get to the end, we are going to look at ways that people may have got involved. Please, no condemnation! If people have got involved, we are not condemning people for doing that, but we certainly would like to help to move you out from that, into something of reality in your lives.
Laura, you were in Spiritualism and many people will look at Spiritualism as being something quite harmless. And they think, ‘It’s alright if people want to go that way.’ But you shared something very interesting with me, that you felt the basis of spiritualism was Luciferianism. We have to define, what do you mean by Luciferianism? Because Lucifer obviously in the Bible is the one who became Satan. Is that really what it is? Is Luciferianism all about Satanism and the basis of this?
LAURA : I obviously think that there are different kind of branches of it. Satanists would take it more literally than that and realise that he is evil. But the kind of thing I was taught, as a Spiritualist and a New Ager, was the Luciferianism, (where the people don’t have a malice in believing this), but they feel that Lucifer is still an angel of light and that the Bible is wrong to say that he fell and became Satan. They feel Lucifer was the one that made the ultimate sacrifice, not Jesus! That Lucifer descended willingly from the planet Venus and he came to teach us and to show us light and to awaken us to our inner divinity. And that Lucifer would be the one, to bring society in the last days into ‘light’. He would pave the way for the New World Order and that he would do this through spirit guides, spirits and different Occult and New Age avenues. And they felt that Jesus wasn’t the Saviour, but that Lucifer is the light.
DOUG : We will come back to Spiritualism . So, are there people who really believe that and practice what you have just said, now, in Britain and around the world?
LAURA : Yeah absolutely – and going back to how it was relevant to Spiritualism – as Spiritualists, we knew a lot of folks would be scared by it, or would find it controversial, but in the 1870’s a very, very famous medium Madame Helena Blavatsky; she was one of the first mediums to publicly admit Lucifer is God. And Mediums have taught that since then, from her. She received these teachings from her so called ‘Spirit Guides’, who claimed to be ‘Ascended Masters’. You can check this out online. It’s not just propaganda from me! Her books are still available, where she basically says that Lucifer is God. And they taught it to Spiritualists and Mediums, although it wasn’t mentioned a lot to us in the Spiritualist Church, but we were aware of it. The Mediums might not call themselves ‘Luciferians’, but they do agree with a lot of the Luciferian doctrine.
DOUG : Now you were in Spiritualism and praise God you got out of Spiritualism and God delivered you. It wasn’t always that easy, as viewers who saw your testimony will know. But if you had known the root of Spiritualism was Luciferianism, this belief that Lucifer was actually God, because many Spiritualists today would not know that. I mean some of them believe in Jesus Christ, etc. Would that have made a difference to you getting into Spiritualism?
LAURA : Well it sounds funny, but it shows how easily you can be deceived, because when I was told that, I just believed the Mediums who taught us that. And certainly this Madame Blavatsky, the famous Medium, ‘Mother of the New Age movement’. When I heard she believed that and because it was ‘spirits’ that told her and because our so called ‘spirit guides’ told us the same information, I thought “Well, these spirits are showing up, telling us this, well it must be true, then the Bible must be false!” So, in actual fact, I just tended to believe it.
DOUG : I guess there are many like that today, that in actual fact they are preaching a totally different Gospel. So, if you go and as nice as people are, and of course people in this realm are nice. As nice as people are, if they are in this realm they are preaching a different Gospel and they are preaching a different God really aren’t they?
LAURA : Yeah definitely.
DOUG : Michael from your perspective and you have been involved in this for quite some time, in the whole are of Deliverance Ministry – do you think some of these things have got far more rooted, in our population, in people today? And so, it is far harder for people to get out? And far harder for people, not to be drawn into it, than it was in years past?
MICHAEL : Oh yes, as we said, Satan turning up with a pitch fork! People of my age were brought up to believe that, that Satan would bring evil. He was your adversary. I was brought up even although I wasn’t a Christian, as a young man that is what I believed. The trouble is today, as we said earlier, there is so much information around. There is so much self-help out there, saying ‘do this, do that’. It is funny, we are talking about Luciferianism bringing light. I can remember a young man, many years ago, I took through deliverance. I remember, he said he became demonised because of the practice of ‘giving light’. He said, he actively, when he met people, he used to pass light on to them. Physically he would give them a candle, or a light, and the spiritual implications behind it. He believed he was doing good, ‘I am giving you this light, so that your whole psyche, your whole being will be energised by this light. You will see far beyond the natural and you will look into the spiritual and the supernatural.’
Even in the higher auspices of Masonic worship, Lucifer is seen as the good God, and Adoni is seen as the wicked god, in that sort of teaching! Now intelligent people believe this. One of my favourite scriptures is, ‘Lean not on your own understanding,’ from Proverbs, because when we lean on our own understanding, we can make sense out of this stuff, we can make it fit into our personal needs and our personal aspirations! We can forget the Bible! Deuteronomy 18, as we know, makes it absolutely clear that these practices are an abomination. God warned His people not to get involved in these practices, when they went into the land of Canaan. Now ‘the land of Canaan’ has spread all over the world and now these practices are practiced in every nation! Because people have no understanding of demons and what demons do, because they still see Satan with the pitch fork, and demons as little goblins that come and prod you with fire and things like that! Then to the intelligent mind, the Occult doesn’t seem far out, it seems very acceptable. That’s why I say, ‘Lean not on your own understanding’, because if you lean on your own understanding, you will be drawn into this stuff and you will be deceived.
DOUG : I guess some people, (maybe not all, because some people would be quite happy to say God doesn’t exist and the Bible is not true) – some people will actually be dabbling. Maybe more than dabbling in some of these believe systems, in Spiritualism, in Luciferianism, in ‘giving light’, whatever, in the New Age terminology, or Occult terminology. They’ll be in it, but feeling they are still ok with scripture, they are still ok with God in the wider sense! But they need to know they are not, don’t they?
MICHAEL : Yes. A lady I spoke to recently, was in that position. She had been 54 years in the Occult. She had been a Tarot Card reader. She had read palms. She had done various other things; used a Ouija board. She believed that the ‘gifts’ she had … And she said to me immediately ‘Michael pray for those ‘gifts’ to go, that I have attained through the Occult’. She believed that when somebody came to her and she gave them a word about what was happening, that she was actually doing God’s will. At first, she saw no distinction between what she was doing and between the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now we know when we read Acts, about the woman, the damsel slave girl, who had the spirit of divination. She never spoke against God, she never spoke against Paul and the followers! She actually said, ‘Follow these men, they know the ways of God.’ But it was Paul, through the discernment he had from the Holy Spirit, he was able to recognise that she actually had a spirit of divination. There are people out there, who have these spirits. They are not going to speak evil about anybody, because they believe these ‘gifts’ are godly gifts. They feel it is actually us, in the church, that have stifled those ‘gifts’ through the spreading of the Gospel!
DOUG : Do you think there is more danger in mixture? In other words, people have got the essence that Satan is wrong and God is right – good and evil. But what we are getting today, is a mixture, aren’t we? What was originally termed the New Age, which wasn’t always called that! Which has developed from the New Age, is very much a mixture of some things, that are fairly good, humanly speaking and some things that are not. There is a lot of danger in that, isn’t there?
LAURA : Yeah. It reminds me of the fact that there are some Luciferians who feel Lucifer is total light, but there are also some Luciferians that think he is a mixture of light and dark. It’s similar to the claim they can use magic, for either good or dark purposes. Whereas, there is a scripture in the Bible that does say, ‘God is light and there is no darkness in Him’. So there is not a mixture of light and darkness in God!
DOUG : Michael is this something that you are seeing? Because there will be certain people watching tonight that believe in God, maybe made a commitment, but they are involved in some of these other things as well. It’s not up to us to condemn them, but how do we begin to communicate, that there is a mixture there and that mixture has got to be dealt with? We have got to sort it out and know what ‘stream’ it is coming from. Where do you begin with that?
MICHAEL : The Bible says in Romans, ‘There is no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus.’ The first thing we have to examine is, what is it to be in Christ Jesus? And we have got to give up the ways of the flesh, give up the older things because they will pass away and we become new creations. One of the first things we do, as Romans 12:2 says, ‘Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.’ Our mind is always the battleground. It is always the place that is attacked first. Habit forming things like looking at horoscopes, exactly the same as alcoholism, exactly the same as drugs. They are habit forming. We become to rely on them. So they have become our ‘gods’. So when times are good, we can look at the Gospel and say, ‘Isn’t God marvellous!’ But when we come up against those times, when we don’t have answers and we are struggling a bit, that’s the time when many people, who unfortunately have one foot in darkness – and the Bible does tell us, that if we have one foot in darkness, then darkness will eventually take all the light away and we will be in total darkness. That’s when people get tempted to look into some of these things. I have known Christians who have been to a Medium – I told you the story before and I will say it again, if I may – about a lady whose son committed a murder. She was broken hearted because he committed suicide shortly after he committed murder. She wanted to know where his final resting place was. So she actually told me that she went to a ‘Christian Medium’. She was sent to them by a local pastor! She was told, ‘Go and see this woman. She will put your mind at rest!’ The lady came to me and said “It’s ok Michael, the Medium saw him walking through the gates to heaven.” Now it was very difficult for me to say anything. I tried to comfort her, but as I got to know her, I did tell her, “I think you have been deceived. Look what the Bible says. It is easy for me because God’s word is the ultimate word. If I sin, I am responsible for the sins I have committed, because I have sinned against God’s word.
When you have that confusion in your life and these people are very, very confused. They don’t think they are doing evil, they don’t wish to do evil. They leave themselves open to total manipulation by the forces of darkness and that is what it is. It is subtle. It’s the same manipulation that Satan said in the garden, “Did God really say that?”
Doug : It’s so subtle isn’t it ? Laura, there is I suppose, what many people would say today, is the ‘acceptable face’. We are using this broad term, ‘The Occult’. To us, it covers a whole range of things and many people would agree, that as you get down to the far end of those things, we shouldn’t have anything to do with them, Satan, etc. But at this mild end, it’s not quite as bad. What would you say to people that are willing to accept that message today? In other words, they accept the message that there is some light given by Lucifer and we can follow that way – people that are thinking of going down that road, what would you say to them?
LAURA : Basically what I would say is, if Lucifer is light, why would he disappear at the name of Jesus? When he has appeared, even masquerading in the form as if an angel of light, Christians challenge him at the name of Jesus and he flees! If he was light, he wouldn’t flee at the name of Jesus! I think it’s important to remind Christians of that, now that the New Age is so wide spread. A famous Medium Alice Bailey, took on the work of Madam Blavatsky. She formed the Lucis Trust in the 1920’s, which was originally called the Lucifer Publishing House! But they changed the name of that. It still goes as The Lucis Trust. They have got Theosophy websites. They have got radio stations, books and they have been promoting teachings through education, through movies, through the media. They won’t mention Lucifer a lot, but that is where the teachings are from. Basically as I say, these ancient religions and these different gods – a mix of that and the Occult. But Lucifer wouldn’t disappear at the name of Jesus, if he was light! And there is another, quite a telling quote – David Spangler is a top Medium just now and in his New Age book Reflections on the Christ, he wrote, ‘Lucifer is neither good nor bad in his true essence. He comes to give us the final gift of wholeness … this is the Luciferian Initiation. It is one that many people now and in the days ahead will be facing, for it is an initiation into the New Age.’ And like Spangler, many top Mediums just now, admit society will face this choice to accept Lucifer! And they feel that Christians are blocking Lucifer’s New World agenda and that Christians will be raptured by either spirit guides, or held by aliens because we are holding back the One World Religion and the One World Government, that Lucifer is aiming to set up soon. So, how is that light?! ( Laura laughs).
DOUG : There is no answer to that! ( he laughs). It is important isn’t it, that we actually consider what we believe? In other words, if we are reading some of Alice Bailey’s literature – personally I find it so difficult to read – some people do – we have got to know what we are reading. We have got to know and we have got to decide what is truth and what isn’t truth! Because there is so much in there, that is so opposite, to the one Jesus who said, “I am the way, the truth and the light, etc.” Now either, therefore Jesus is a liar, which I also find difficult, when you begin to think of some claims that He is a reincarnation of these other good people. He is not. The whole thing becomes a mess! How do you start working out of this what is real and what is not real? What is truth and what is not truth?
LAURA : Well as I say, that’s how it’s very important that you do know the Bible and particularly read the passages in the Bible that do talk about deceptions. And in the apostle Paul’s letter to the Colossians, he was the telling the Christians watch out for false teachings that can come into the church! Being aware of that and I think also folks maybe say, “Well I don’t believe in the Bible.” Well, even listen to testimonies then, of ex-Occultists and how they discovered their ‘Spirit Guide’, or their angel, or whatever disappeared at the name of Jesus – that kind of speaks for itself!
DOUG : Did that happen to you? Is that something that happened to you?
LAURA : It happened to me, it happened to my mother as well. I can tell you briefly about what happened to my mother. We were trying to get out of Spiritualism by now, because our so called ‘spirit guides’ and so called ‘dead relatives’ were beginning to attack us.
DOUG : Up until then, they had been very much for you, with you, helping. Then they turned on you!
LAURA : Yeah, then they turned on us. So as we were trying to leave, it got worse and one night my mother said it was the worse night in her life. She was attacked for hours one night. She called out for help. She called for higher ‘Ascended Masters’, better ‘Spirit Guides’, more evolved spirits to come and help her. Then she saw a huge eye on the wall. So she thought that was a good sign. She thought that’s the all seeing eye coming to help her! But it turned evil and she suddenly realised Horace was not a good god! She also saw a figure that looked like an angel. She believed that was Lucifer and he looked kind and was shining brightly. But as he became closer to her she realised he was really evil. She sensed he was evil. She sensed he was trying to kill her. And she realised he wasn’t Lucifer, he was truly Satan after all. And that was the first time she called out on Jesus Christ and then the apparitions vanished.
DOUG : What we have got to realise, is that these apparitions aren’t real in the sense of humans. They are spiritual beings. We read of them in places like Ephesians six, where we have all of these various demonic realms. We have to be aware that they are trying to show us that they are good, when in actual fact, when we don’t want to go their way, they will then seek to harm us in that way.
Michael I think we dealt with this. You mentioned something earlier, about things being easier now. The way I looked at it, in days gone by, if you wanted to get into Spiritualism, you had to go into the darkened room. There was a sense of fear, there was a sense of something that was going to stop you going in. Today you can read all about it on the internet, you can go to theatres and watch these people work. It’s a ‘do it yourself’ thing, very much these days and you have used that phrase before. Is there a greater danger, that people are getting into things they don’t understand? They don’t know how to handle and it’s more likely to harm them than help them?
MICHAEL : Yes. The thing about Lucifer and the bringing of ‘light’, we know Jesus as the light of the world. So if Lucifer is bringing light, he would worship Jesus and he would work with Jesus, wouldn’t he?! If he has really come to bring light and come to do good, he would worship with Jesus. He wouldn’t have opposed Jesus on the Mount of Temptation! He wouldn’t have asked Jesus to worship him! So we know that Lucifer is Satan. When the Gospel of Luke when the 7 return with joy and said ‘Lord, even the spirits submit to us in thy name .’ Jesus makes it very clear, “I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven”. So Jesus has himself witnessed Satan fall to the earth. So let’s not muck about. Lucifer is Satan! There is no argument about that, we cannot be deceived by that. The TV, the media … There are two things that people can be deceived by, they can be deceived by the charlatan’s – there have been programmes on the TV, where some Mediums have made it all up. There was a famous Medium caught on the Most Haunted programme, by making something that it wasn’t and they called him out and he was exposed. So, people can be deceived that way by charlatan’s. They can also be deceived into believing that they are going into a source of power that will take them deep into the realms of knowledge and wisdom and there will be nothing to pay for learning that knowledge. But as we know, the devil will always come back and he will always want his ‘pound of flesh’. He is the shylock of the spiritual world. So he will come back and he will want it. So when people go into these things, they should understand that it may be bread and jam for a couple of weeks but the nasty tasting stuff is going to come sooner or later. And that is going to come in the form of nightmares, it’s going to come in the form of insomnia, certain sicknesses, certain diseases, fear and anxiety and maybe even mental illness. And these things will come! For 15 years now I have dealt with people who have been in the Occult, in one form or another. And that is the payback that they get – extreme sickness, extreme mental instability, fear, marital breakdown, real, real terrible stuff will happen to them. And I would urge anyone watching, don’t go there – don’t be tempted to go there.
DOUG : In other words, Satan doesn’t play games! You can think that you are in control of him, but really he is in control of you! Is that always the way?
MICHAEL : The thing is with Satan, he is very subtle and he is very clever and he will give you the understanding, that you are in charge of a situation! A Christian man once told me, “Oh I don’t have to worry about Satan”, I said “Why is that?” He said “I know all about his plots and plans, I can deal with Him!” And I actually said to this man, “Well you are more cleverer than I, because I am learning every day about Satan,” because as the tender mercies of God are new every morning, so is the subtleness of Satan. He reinvents himself all the time. When you think years ago, the Occult was Witchcraft – it was ‘black’ or it was ‘white’ – now the Occult is grey, turning a little bit white in colour. These days boundary lines have gone now – things like Reiki. I have a horror story to tell you about a lady who had Reiki Healing, who believed that was a gift from God! She believed she saw heaven, saw the Holy Spirit descend upon her during a Reiki Healing. And when she got home she realised within 48 hours, that she was now demon possessed and that came from Reiki healing. Now they say Reiki healing is great, it’s massage. I tell you one thing we have to be careful of and I would like to say this – if we have come out of the Occult, in one form or another, we need to have a time where we are reflecting on the Lord and we are learning and we are studying. For argument sake, someone who has been a Reiki Healer cannot come out of Reiki, be born again and then practice massage – there are dangers.
DOUG : I guess the point, which I wanted to bring out, which you brought out very clearly in that illustration, is that it is the spirit behind the thing. In other words, any human laying their hands on another human is fine. But it is the spirit that is being transferred by that. And if the spirit in the past, has been one that has not been of God, you can’t suddenly switch it! There has to be a time of waiting; of dealing with the past, to come into the future.
MICHAEL : Absolutely true. When we come to the Lord, if we come from the Occult, we need a time of reflection and we need to know who Jesus is. And we need to serve Him in truth and we need to be humble towards the Lord. We need to surrender everything to him. We need to lay everything at the foot of the cross and cover it with the blood. We mustn’t come out of one practice and believe that skills that we received in the Occult can be re-harnessed for the sake of the Gospel. And can be used, if you like for healing, or deliverance or anything else like that!
DOUG : The important thing here, is the source of the power and whereas God is all powerful and all supreme, Satan is greater than man by himself. I do want to underline that. In other words, Satan is greater than just man, he is not greater than Christ in us, Hallelujah! So therefore, it is the source of that power.
Now Laura, one of the things that I have heard over the years, as I have talked to people in this realm, is that they feel that, for instance, Medium-ship is the gift of the Holy Spirit; that Spiritualism is Christ healing. In other words, they see absolutely no distinction in their Spiritualism and their Christianity. The two things to them, are the same. I remember once, being in Glastonbury, of course it’s a very famous New Age area there. And we were doing some interviews and I was actually asking people. Most of them were church goers interestingly! I was asking them time and time again, “Is there any difference, in what you see here in Glastonbury and what you see in your church on a Sunday morning?” And 99.9 % said, ‘No, there is no difference whatsoever, it was spiritually the same, there was healing, there was something happening, they felt the spirit, whatever it was.’ How do you begin to deal with that? Because we are saying there is a different spirit there. They are saying “but the end result is the same!” How do we begin to cope with that, when we are talking to people?
LAURA : Well as you say, it’s the source. If as a Christian, you have come to believe in Christ and you have received the Holy Spirit, someone perhaps prays for you – you receive the gift of tongues. Someone perhaps then prays for you, you receive the gift of healing, or the gift of prophecy, or discernment of spirits, or deliverance. If that needed to be a Christian to lay hands on you to receive tongues and to receive those gifts, then how can you say, that before you were a Christian you had the gift of healing?! The Holy Spirit gives you that gift after you have got born again! So, if you have had a ‘gift’ before, then it was a counterfeit gift and its source wasn’t the Holy Spirit! And as Michael says, you can’t just transfer it over! More often I have heard of people that have had psychic abilities and after they got saved, they did need deliverance from those abilities, to be cut. And at a later date, they received the gift of healing or whatever, from the Holy Spirit, so there is a definite distinction!
DOUG : Some people don’t want to lay it down, do they? They’ve had the power; the power of healing; the power of prophetic words, speaking to someone and telling them something that is going to happen. And they don’t want to lay that down. Where do you begin? Somebody comes like that to you – says they want to become a Christian, but it is obvious to you they don’t want to lay these things down. Where do you start with them?
LAURA : Well I think first and foremost it’s important as Michael said, to explain that in following Christ there are sacrifices to be made. There is obedience. There is a life of holiness. So you wouldn’t want to mix these unclean spirits, in with your new Christian life. And also the fact, that this is a demonic power at work! So, do you really want that demonic power around you, about your presence? So it is quite important to have that dealt with. Perhaps, even the story of Simon the Sorcerer, in the book of Acts. He wanted to buy the gifts of the spirit off the apostles, because he was a sorcerer. He wanted to buy more magic powers, but clearly he wasn’t really wanting Jesus, he just wanted the powers and the gifts! And so it is knowing, do you want Christ in your life, or not, basically?
DOUG : What is interesting about that story, is that he is seeing the apostles healing, delivering and whatever else they were doing. He is seeing all that and he is not seeing that as being anything wrong! He wants that, so in other words, he wasn’t against Christ, but he just wanted the powers that were there! And is that a problem? I mean when people even as Christians and non-Christians, when we are just looking for power and not looking for giving ourselves to Christ and allowing him to do what He wants to do with us. That becomes a stumbling block and a problem doesn’t it?
LAURA : I think it does and I think perhaps it is a learning curve for people. And they maybe take on a little bit at a time and they are still processing it all. Because there was a year or so ago, a guy on the internet who was a Shaman – I think he stayed in India, but he said he toured the whole world doing Shamanic healing. He came across my testimony, sent me a message, and actually said “Would I like to join him and go around the world healing people?” And I was like, “No!!!” (Laura laughs). I tried to explain. When he had listened to me on TV, he had only heard the good things I had said about the healings and the miracles that we have saw Christ do. And he was quite impressed with that, but he didn’t understand that the Shamanic healing and the healing from Christ are two different sources and can’t be compatible. So, who knows where he is at now, but at that time, that is the way his thought processes were!
DOUG : I guess we are getting to the Cross aren’t we? And the cross of Christ is a stumbling block to some people because they think ‘It brings the end to me’. Because if I had been famous, or if I had powers and helped people and people had appreciated me because of that … They don’t want to hear the Cross. It brings an end to that! We have got to start with a new life. Has this been a stumbling block? Have you found Michael, people that have not allowed, or not willing to allow the Cross of Jesus Christ, in all its reality, to touch their lives and change them?
MICHAEL : Well if I can go back – you mentioned Glastonbury. Glastonbury is a classic example of a cross over, because Glastonbury was once a place where holiness was preached. There was once a monastery there and was renowned in that part of the country. The New Agers are the people who go there now and a lot of them are really hippies aren’t they? Very 70s and similar to the stuff that went on in San Francisco in the late 60s, flowers in your hair and listen to Scot McKenzie and that sort of stuff! It is the gifts the people want. The gifts, without the responsibility! There is a responsibility with the gifts and you could say “Yes.” God may not pour these gifts upon you. You may become a Christian, you may love Jesus, you may serve Jesus. Jesus may give you a gift that you are able to talk to people – calm them down, give them kind words and that is your anointing from the Lord. ‘But I don’t want that – I want to be able to heal – I want to be able to lay hands on them!’ And people have to realise that with these gifts, there is great, great responsibility. We know that within the modern church, many men of God have fallen, because the gifts and responsibility of those gifts where too great for them. The world lured them back into it. So, with any gift from God, there is great responsibility. Glastonbury and places like that, they practice what they call ‘gifts’, but there is really no responsibility. There is no moral responsibility. Are they actually preaching morals? Are they actually lifting up marriage? Are they lifting up holiness in any way? No! It seems to be a feeling of being happy, if we feel good then it must be good! We must be doing good because everyone is happy with it! That is a real, real deception because everywhere we look -we can go out on a bright sunny day and there is evil all around us. Although the sun is shining – we can go and sit on the beach and it’s lovely, the sea is lapping against the sands, but there is evil all around us. So, even through that light, we have to have discernment, so that we can see what is behind that light and the force behind that ‘light’.
DOUG : We are coming towards the end of the programme and I do want to deal with this whole area of how we can help people. And there seems to me, to be two areas that can be a problem, what’s in the past and what you feel is in the future. Maybe we could deal with the past, with you. Have you met people, Michael, whose problem isn’t actually their problem, but it was in a previous generation? And if that’s the case (and I think that sometimes you can use that as an excuse), but if that genuinely is the case, what do you do about that?
MICHAEL : Well, if we take certain people that are in the Occult, they not only say it over themselves, but they say it over their children and sometimes their children’s children. They make offerings, they make sacrifices. These things are binding, so if they are not broken, the devil will hold to it. So, what we have to do, we have to explain to people the consequences of what has been said over them; what has been said in proxy for them and they have to know that it can affect their lives spiritually. And we have to break, if you like, (I know the word’s not always popular), but we have to break the soul tie. Whether it be an Occultic soul tie to a person, a soul tie to Spiritualism, whatever it maybe. We have to break those soul ties, so these people can move on and be free in their own lives. Now, it could be, that when they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour, the Lord is gracious enough to do it for them and we hope it is. I look forward to a day when we go to church, or when we talk at meetings like this, that all we will be doing is praising the Lord, but at the moment we are not quite there. So, we have to help those that still have these things attached to them. But the word ancestral curses, generational curses, lots of people say it is misquoting the Bible and misquoting what is says in Deuteronomy. But the fact is, when things have been said over you, when things have been done over you, especially blood sacrifices … Many people I know, have had blood sacrifices and offerings made on their behalf. And it needed to be broken, so they could be free, otherwise it is always going to be a hindrance and stumbling block. The word of the Lord says, ‘… casting down imaginations and tearing down strongholds’, and these are the things attached to these people. And we do it lovingly and we do it spiritually.
DOUG : In other words, it’s not automatic, because there may be somebody who was involved in the Occult in your background, doesn’t automatically cause a problem. But as you say, if there has been some serious words, some serious curses put over, then that can be binding and that does need to be dealt with. But the message and lets just make it clear here, from what you have said. The message is this, Jesus Christ can set you free from those things. They do not have to be binding any longer, once you allow Christ to deal with them, once you give your life to Him.
MICHAEL : Absolutely – mankind has lost many battles over the years, but God has never lost a battle and you know Jesus Christ doesn’t yield to Satan at all. He defeated Satan on the cross. He has defeated Satan at Calvary, and when he said “It is finished,” in principle it is finished. People have to know it is finished and when they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour the devil is defeated in their life. That’s why he attacks them! If he has been used to holding them into captivity, he doesn’t like it, if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour! He wants to come back at you, to try and convince you that he doesn’t leave – but that is when we stand firm in what Christ has done.
DOUG : Laura one of the things, is the past but it is also the future. And many people in the Occult have an idea of either Reincarnation, or some form of ‘it is going to be alright on the night anyway’. What message do you give to people that have some sort of, what I would call an airy fairy hope, that maybe it’s going to be ok – what message do you give to them, of say You Have Got To Know It’s Going To Be Alright! And how they are going to know it is going to be alright?
LAURA : Basically, getting down to the nitty gritty, if that (Reincarnation) was true, well then you are kinda taking your chances, but if we believe what the Bible says, that there is a heaven and there is a hell, then I wouldn’t want to take that chance – that I am just going to be reincarnated and come back! And even again, to kinda emphasis, the New Age message and that whole Occult message, I have even spoke to Satanists and three ex-Satanists who say they think Mediums, New Agers, Luciferians etc, are all deluded because the Satanists know fine well, that they get their physic powers from Satan! Some Satanists do Kabbalah, they do meditation, the same as what New Agers do! And yet, they know the powers are coming from Satan! They think Mediums and others are deluded basically. So, these are guys that do know Satan and yet they are saying they know that Jesus is the answer, so they are just choosing not to follow him.
DOUG : So, we need to know, it’s no good pinning your hope on something that might happen! We need to know and I think in our experience certainly, the only way you can absolutely know, is through what Christ has done and what he is going to do for you. And there is no other way of deliverance is there? There is no other answer. You can’t work yourself out of this one?
LAURA : No, definitely not.
DOUG : We have got a few minutes left. What I’d like to do, is for both of you to pray and if we have got a bit more time, we will encourage folks a little bit more. Laura, maybe if you could look right into your camera and you could really pray for people, especially this whole area of salvation, they would really come to know Christ. And then Michael, you can pray for those that are in desperate need of deliverance, maybe they have looked, sought, tried, whatever.
LAURA : I really would like to appeal to you, if you are into the New Age, or if you are a Medium. I would like to just touch on the whole thing. I know that the Occult promises mysteries and all these kinda things but in actual fact Colossians 2:2 says if you know Christ, within Christ He contains the full mysteries of God and the treasures of wisdom. Daniel 2 says, that if you know Christ, He is the revealer of mysteries. And He will reveal His heart to you, if you come to know Him. So, we don’t need to seek things from the Occult. We can seek the answers for our life from Christ Himself! So, I would like to urge you, if this is making sense to you today, please ask Jesus into your life today! Not only will He cleanse you from sin and save you from hell, He is the person who will never leave you or forsake you. Other relationships may disappoint but Christ can never disappoint and I would urge you to do that today. So would you like to please pray this simple prayer after me?
“Dear Heavenly Father, I thank you for the Lord Jesus. I believe He died on the cross for my sins and rose again. I ask that Christ would come into my heart now and wash me clean with His blood and send me the precious Holy Spirit. Thank You, Lord. Amen.”
MICHAEL : “Lord God, we ask you today, to take the scales from the eyes from those who are being deceived, that they will truly see. I ask for all those who have been affected by the Occult, that are frightened, that are terrified, that are anxious and so full of fear, that they went underground. They don’t see you Lord, because all they see is the fear that surrounds them. 3 John 2 says, ‘Beloved, I wish above all things, that thou may prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers,’ and Lord take them today, deliver them, heal them, set them free, break all the chains, break all the fetters that hold them in bondage. We rebuke Satan now and we command him to leave your lives! We say he should go immediately and never return. The Bible says, that all demons should go to dry arid places. We bind the works of darkness – we bind the spirit of Witchcraft – we bind all Occult spirits, that are attacking you today, that are holding you captive. And we cover you all, with the precious blood of the Lamb. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony! So be free today, in the name of Jesus Christ. Let the blood of the Lamb be upon them and let you be set free, forever from the snares of Satan, in Jesus Name we pray, amen.”
DOUG : And can I say, that if you have prayed that prayer, or if it stirred something up in you, that you need mor help or prayer, please make sure you contact us. You can contact us at firstname.lastname@example.org or you can phone the office, on +44 (0) 208 972 1400. Let us know if God’s touched your life through this program. Let us know if you need more help. We’d really love to hear from you. And I know certainly Michael and Laura as well, we don’t cut and run. They’re here for the long haul, if people need help. So, please do contact us.
DOUG : Laura, how would you encourage people? We have dealt with what is wrong. We have dealt with the problems. We have dealt with what people may be still suffering. How would you encourage people? Maybe your own life is an encouragement! But how would you encourage and what would you want to say to folks?
LAURA : That although these are days of deception, these are also days of great light. As we know, the Bible says in the last days, there will be more glory in the church, more of Christ’s presence, more of His power and we know plenty Christians around the world are prophesying that right now. Yeah, there are dark days ahead – there is more Luciferianism ahead, but Christ’s power will be stronger and brighter for those of us that know him.
DOUG : And so, everyone can come to know him? Everyone?
LAURA : Absolutely everyone. No one is exempt from that!
DOUG : Yeah things are getting darker, things are getting worse! There is more out there. It’s all terrible news, isn’t it! (Doug laughs). Encourage us, Michael!
MICHAEL : Well, be encouraged by the life of Jesus Christ. He overcame the devil on the Mount of Temptation and he overcame death and he arose on the third day! We have risen with Jesus Christ through his passion and we will go to eternal life to be with Him forever! I say to everyone in the Occult, “You have tried the rest, now try the very Best and we say that now!” (They all laugh!)
DOUG : It’s true because there is no other way out of this and I think for Christians too, I think the message is this – yes it’s dark, yes there is a lot of Occult out there! As I say to folks, cheer up, it’s only going to get worse! But Christ has not changed! He is still the same and whether you are walking through the valley of darkness, or you are on the mountain top, He is there for us and He is there with us, isn’t He!
MICHAEL : Why did God send his Son? God sent his Son, so we could be saved – so we could be saved from this sort of thing. We could have new lives and we could go to eternal life with Him. ‘For God so loved the world …’ We all know what it says. He sent His only begotten Son – so all we have to do, is believe in Him. He will do the rest!
DOUG : And you’ve proved that Laura, haven’t you? Absolutely! You’ve opened your life and He came in and changed it.
LAURA : Yes, amen!
DOUG : Bless you guys. Thank you for being with us today.
MICHAEL AND LAURA : Thank you.
DOUG : And bless you viewers, Thank you for being with us today. And may the Lord touch and change your lives and do something really special for you. See you again very soon. Bye for now!
This interview took place in March 2012, and our beloved brother Doug Harris went to be with the Lord in May 2013. We miss him very greatly. If you would like to contact Michael or Laura, here are their details :
Michael’s blog : http://christsetsyoufree.wordpress.com/contact-info/
Many thanks and God bless you.
I would like to thank my friend Sally Simpson for very kindly transcribing this manuscript from the tv interview.
I would also like to thank my Facebook friend Jackie who has kindly offered to translate this into Spanish and also Portugese. I’d also like to thank my Facebook friend Sonja of Sunshine Publishings, who has kindly offered to translate this into Dutch.
These translations will eventually appear as subtitles on three copies of this video on my YouTube and Vimeo channels. It’s so exciting, that those who speak those languages will be able to read the interview. Praise God for this translation work!
If any of you, can translate this into another language, I’d love to hear from you! I’d especially love it to be transcribed into French, for the French speaking people in France and also in Africa. I’d also love it to be transcribed into Italian, God willing.
As always, myself and my friends do so appreciate and cherish greatly your prayers, because as you can imagine, the battle is great at times. But as it is written in, Romans 8:37 ‘No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us’.
Many thanks and God bless you.